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Jul 28, 2008 10:00 AM | last updated Jul 28, 2008 9:14 AM
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The pet peeve

By Knute Berger

A number of bloggers have been looking into the Southern California habit of putting "the" in front of freeway numbers, as in "don't take The 5 because it's really backed up." People in other parts of California are alarmed at the spread of the habit throughout the state, and I've heard it creeping into Seattle jargon, as well.

Apparently, people in most places don't add the "the" to numbered highways. Its mainly an L.A./O.C. thing. We didn't here, either. I lived in the Bay Area in the mid-1970s, and because the place had so many named freeways, you got used to hearing about The Alameda or The Nimitz. Some knuckleheads — like car dealers — announced in their TV ads that buyers should come down to their lots on "The El Camino," which is a bilingual redundancy since "El" means "the" in Spanish, as we were informed brilliantly by Saturday Night Live's Chris Farley who told us that the translation of El Nino was "The Nino." No one needs a double "the." But now Bay Area residents are hearing references to "The 101" on traffic reports.

I've heard similar references here to The 520 and The 405, and I have a feeling since at least half of Seattle newcomers are from California, they're bringing their bad habits with them. But the example of the creeping "the" that really annoys me is placing that article before "Puget Sound." Even many local newscasters — especially in traffic and weather reports — are now routinely saying The Puget Sound. Here's an irritating reference to it in a recent Associated Press story.

The Puget Sound area, the Puget Sound basin, the Sound: All that's okay. But people, it is not "The Puget Sound," it's just Puget Sound, period.

You can categorize this idiocy along with "Pike's Place Market" (confusing it, apparently, with Pike's Peak), or perhaps chalk it up to the general Californication of the region, but please, citizens, let's try to maintain some regional linguistic standards.

Update: Here's the academic theory about how LA's "the" highway phenomenon started.

  • Knute Berger is Mossback, Crosscut's chief Northwest native. He also writes the monthly Gray Matters column for Seattle magazine and is a weekly Friday guest on Weekday on KUOW-FM (94.9). You can e-mail him at mossback@crosscut.com.
Comments
Wow, were you sitting behind us
Report a violationPosted by: reeljake on Jul 28, 2008 11:43 AM
at The Jolly Roger on Friday? Had the EXACT same argument with a born and raised Seattle native who insisted The Puget Sound was proper. To me that's right up there with saying Warshington (which I have to hear at every extended family gathering).
Similarly peeved
Report a violationPosted by: pigeonherder on Jul 28, 2008 11:46 AM
I agree with you Knute. How annoying! I also find it particularly annoying how prevalent the use of Washington State is. Everyone seems to add the mostly unnecessary "State" to all references to Washington. Now granted, if you were visiting the US from abroad and were telling your friends back home in London that you'd been to Washington, you probably want to add "State", so as to clarify the extent of your trip. But for people who live and work here, it's not needed. In fact it seems to indicate low self-esteem...almost like we're not sure who we are. I've even seen documents that addressed Gregoire as "Governor of Washington State". Why can't we just say we're from Washington and let other people figure out which one?
More pet peeves on the linguistic front
Report a violationPosted by: Sue Frause on Jul 28, 2008 12:29 PM
Crosscut WriterI recently saw a piece on TV about a guy going around the US and changing all the inappropriately used it's to its. That's one of my major pet peeves, and if I had the time and a big bottle of Liquid Paper, I'd help him out. Also, why do people say, "Graduated high school"? I thought I graduated from high school. Our friends north of the 49th Parallel say (at least on the CBC) that a person is in hospital, not in the hospital. I'll cut them some slack due to their geographic location. As far as roads, fortunately here on Whidbey Island, we still call it Highway 525 and Highway 520 and not The Highway 525 and The Highway 520. I'm not sure if it's all the folks from The Beverly Hills 90210 who started this annoying trend, but may The Grammar be with them. And I don't mean Kelsey. Cheers!
RE: More pet peeves on the linguistic front
Report a violationPosted by: Benjamin Lukoff on Jul 28, 2008 12:47 PM
Crosscut WriterLooks like we have the makings of a peeveblog!

I do believe "graduated from high school" is standard around here, but it is also my recollection that "was graduated from high school" is the older standard form, which just goes to show you that standards change.

That having been said, yes, "The 5" grates on my ears. It'll always be "I-5" to me!
Mossbacks?
Report a violationPosted by: Youngblood on Jul 28, 2008 12:30 PM
I think of "Pike's Place Market" as the parlance of out-of-towners. However, I miss the distinctively-Seattle habit of adding an "s" to the end of some proper nouns. It wasn't that many years ago when many (most?) local residents would say:

"Boeings"
"Fred Meyers"
"Nordstroms"

And if only I had a $20 bill for every time I've heard someone say "ATM machine ..."
Articles of grammar
Report a violationPosted by: AerosmithNirvana on Jul 28, 2008 1:31 PM
Okay, it's not so rare. I've been in TN, IL, GE, OH, WV, and WA. I've heard "the" added to the interstate name in every one of those states. It's quite common. You have the choice of saying, "Take the 5", "Take interstate 5", or "Take I-5". It's like saying "Take THE interstate" only specifying which one, i.e. "the 5". I suppose one could also say, "The 5th interstate", but that seems kind of odd to me. ATM machine, yeah that's redundant. PIN number - redundant. “The ‘El Camino’"? Not redundant. This is actually a pet peeve of mine. Were the name of the vehicle "Camino", it would be incorrect to say "The el Camino". But, the name is "El Camino", WITH the "El" (notice I said "with the el", not "with el" - that sounds odd, huh?). Therefore, it is AN "El Camino" not merely El Camino - to be referred to as the "El Camino". This annoys me the same way people say things like "The Mariners did their best". Correctly, it is, "The Mariners did its best". It's a compound singular. "Mariners" refers to one team, not several individuals.
RE: Articles of grammar
Report a violationPosted by: dbreneman on Jul 28, 2008 1:50 PM
I'm afraid you're wrong about The Mariners (and sports teams in general). It is a plural. Every member is referred to in the singular ("Ichiro is a Seattle Mariner") and all the members of the team comprise the Seattle Mariners. You should not say "The Mariners sucks this year." You should say "The Mariners suck this year." That's why names like The Thunder are so stultifyingly preposterous.
RE: Articles of grammar
Report a violationPosted by: AerosmithNirvana on Jul 28, 2008 2:12 PM
He is not a Mariner. He is a baseball player. He is a member of the Mariners. He is a member of a group, not groups. I know compound singulars can be confusing. Sometimes it is called a "group noun". It is a singular that encompasses a plurality. Are there any other teachers who can help me out here? I know I just deal with 5th graders, so do we have any English majors in the house? Maybe that would buy more credibility.
The Worst Perpetrator
Report a violationPosted by: dbreneman on Jul 28, 2008 1:42 PM
If it wasn't for their good programming, I could not listen to KOUW's sister station KXOT. Their hosts are forever referring to The Puget Sound, even "Here in The Puget Sound" in reference to Western Washington. Lady, if you're in The Puget Sound you'd better have a life jacket! It must be in the station's style guide because everyone on that station says it. I even hear some saying The Hood Canal. Sounds like a dental procedure. But here's a new corruption you may not have noticed, and I believe it comes from the area around Virginia (because the first time I heard it was from folks from that part of the country). It's the formulation "My house needs painted" or "My car needs repaired." Try to diagram that sentence. So here's a guide for carpetbaggers:
-
1) Washington State is a college.
2) Freeways and inland waterways don't take definite articles.
3) If Hamlet was a Virginian, his famous speech would be "Or not. That is the question."
P.S.
Report a violationPosted by: AerosmithNirvana on Jul 28, 2008 2:21 PM
Additionally, you would indeed say that "The Mariners sucks this year", as odd as it may sound. The "s" is not used to make it plural. The "s" is part of the spelling of the name of the team – The one, and single team. It (not "they") is (not "are") called "The Mariners". I understand that it seems odd, and I understand that people still do what they do. People use the word "ain't". It's been used so much that it actually is a word now. Languages evolve. It's actually technically wrong of me to correct it at all as long as it is understood. Language is not defined by a dictionary or grammar book. But, as current curriculum is, with existing text books, it is a compound singular.
Like fingernails on a blackboard....
Report a violationPosted by: knute.berger@crosscut.com on Jul 28, 2008 2:29 PM
Crosscut Writerthat's what "Warshington" sounds like to me. I understand it's a rural Midwest thing, but it still grates. Even some people in Eastern Warshington grew up saying Warshington. Maybe instead of a Cascade Curtain we need Cascade earplugs!

Growing up, kids' dads worked at Boeing's. It wasn't until I was a freshman in high school that I realized that old man Boeing himself wasn't going to work at the plant everyday with a lunch bucket. I met his grandson, Bill Boeing III, who told me the family had sold the business. I asked him what his dad did for a living and he looked at me funny. "He invests our money," he replied. I said, well, okay, but what does he do?

Boeing was Boeing for a long time, but a former Boeing's guy emailed me and says back in the '90s, the company officially became "The Boeing Company" and wanted to wipe out all reference to plain old Boeing.

As far as El Camino, I wasn't referring to the car or cruck. I was talking about El Camino Real, which is a highway kind of like old 99. "The Royal Road," or the King's Highway, as the Spanish called it. So, getting in "the old El Camino" for a spin makes sense to me, but driving down "the El Camino" to buy one does not.
"State"
Report a violationPosted by: AerosmithNirvana on Jul 28, 2008 2:33 PM
Okay, I promise this is my last entry on this. Washington State is often used to separate the state from the district, which is the capitol. Nationally, "Washington" refers to Washington D.C. more often than to Washington State. For example, the Washington Post newspaper is not in Washington State, or when a news anchor says, "Live from Washington", he or she is generally in Washington D.C. It is akin to assuming that if someone says "Oklahoma", he or she is speaking of the state, not the city. Whereas, speaking of the city, it is more acceptable to say "Oklahoma City".
RE: "State"
Report a violationPosted by: dbreneman on Jul 28, 2008 3:41 PM
I don't want to get into a back-and-forth with you, but I will point out that the name of Oklahoma City is indeed Oklahoma City. And, as noted in point 1) above, "Washington State is a college." If you must use the redundant construction, do not capitalize the "S" in "state". As evidence that real Washingtonians bridle at the misuse of "State" I refer you to the results of this state slogan competition.
Responding to AerosmithNirvana
Report a violationPosted by: Benjamin Lukoff on Jul 28, 2008 3:21 PM
Crosscut WriterHe is not a Mariner. He is a baseball player. He is a member of the Mariners. He is a member of a group, not groups. I know compound singulars can be confusing. Sometimes it is called a "group noun". It is a singular that encompasses a plurality. Are there any other teachers who can help me out here? I know I just deal with 5th graders, so do we have any English majors in the house? Maybe that would buy more credibility.

I have a master's in English linguistics but knew years before that that one can indeed be a Mariner, a Yankee, a Pirate, etc., just as Paul McCartney was a Beatle and SSgt Barry Sadler was a Green Beret.

Additionally, you would indeed say that "The Mariners sucks this year", as odd as it may sound. The "s" is not used to make it plural. The "s" is part of the spelling of the name of the team – The one, and single team. It (not "they") is (not "are") called "The Mariners".

I have never heard anyone say anything like "The Mariners sucks this year." The "s" in team names and band names is a plural marker. I can't imagine anyone reading "The Mariners sucks" as other than a typo, nor hearing it spoken as anything other than ungrammatical.

Now, we do have the case in British English of unmarked group nouns taking the plural, like "Liverpool have" or "Barclays Bank have," but this is something quite different.

I understand that it seems odd, and I understand that people still do what they do. People use the word "ain't". It's been used so much that it actually is a word now. Languages evolve. It's actually technically wrong of me to correct it at all as long as it is understood. Language is not defined by a dictionary or grammar book. But, as current curriculum is, with existing text books, it is a compound singular.

I do find this so hard to believe I'd actually like to see a citation of a textbook that calls for the use of such constructions.
RE: esponding to AerosmithNirvana
Report a violationPosted by: Yarrow on Aug 5, 2008 3:10 PM
I just tried to find an answer on Wikipedia, and the entries under "collective noun" were making my head spin. But I believe there's some confusion here about the difference between different kinds of collective, mass or group nouns.

AerosmithNirvana, I see your point and I think it applies to sports teams with names such as The Jazz. (As in, "The Jazz has a terrible name!")

Some group names, like the Beatles and the Mariners, seem to function the same way as family surnames--"The Hendersons have a new car." John Lennon was a Beatle, and when he got together with Paul McCartney there were two Beatles, and we say the Beatles have (not has) quite a following. Others, such as The Clash, don't work this way. The Clash has (not have) its fans, but there's no such thing as "a Clash" or "two Clashes."

Likewise, the Army marches on its stomach, and the FBI has files on a lot of people, but the Masons have secret rites, and the Franciscans make fruitcakes to sell at Christmas.

I think the difference may be that if the same name applies to the whole group and to each individual, so that the group called "The Beatles" is made up of four (or five) Beatles, then the group noun is plural when the group is being referred to, and we say, "The Beatles are (not is) great!" But if the group name only applies to the group and not to its members, then the group name takes a singular verb.

Can anyone explain this better?
More peeves
Report a violationPosted by: Benjamin Lukoff on Jul 28, 2008 3:25 PM
Crosscut WriterI think top on my list are people referring to Madison Street as Madison Avenue (this is Seattle, not New York!), Broadway as Broadway Avenue ("way" is the street type here), and University Way as University Avenue (granted, its nickname is "The Ave"). Even the city has been guilty of this — I've seen signs for Broadway Avenue at the north end of Capitol Hill, which were corrected when I pointed out the error, and took this photo of a University Avenue sign at the corner of 41st and the Ave a couple of months ago. It still hasn't been fixed.

What I really don't get is when people get their own addresses wrong, like University Ave Barber and Styling.
such fun
Report a violationPosted by: walterb on Jul 29, 2008 1:35 PM
This is all so much fun!!! Isn't anyone going to mention Canadian Geese?
The Golden State Freeway
Report a violationPosted by: urbanite on Aug 3, 2008 10:05 PM
I grew up in southern California and always used an article with my freeways.

Then I moved to northern California and had it beat out of me...that and many apologies for "stealing" their water during the drought.

Really, I don't see what the big deal is with the freeway thing. Maybe we should start referring to our I-5 as The Golden State Freeway up here.
RE: The Golden State Freeway
Report a violationPosted by: Benjamin Lukoff on Aug 4, 2008 4:27 PM
Crosscut WriterI-5 in Seattle was the Seattle Freeway when it opened. Don't know if that's still officially the case. Of course, no one actually uses the official names of the 520 and I-90 bridges, which are still signed...
RE: The Golden State Freeway
Report a violationPosted by: knute.berger@crosscut.com on Aug 5, 2008 9:03 PM
Crosscut WriterOkay, now you're opening a can of worms on the bridges. The northernmost floating bridge has at least three names: 520, Evergreen Point Bridge, and Albert D. Rosellini--Evergreen Point.

The southernmost bridge is actually two side-by-side bridges. They used to be differentiated by being called the Old Bridge and the New Bridge. However, much of the Old Bridge was destroyed in a storm and replaced, so it is actually newer than the New Bridge. To add some confusion, the 520/Evergreen Point/Rosellini bridge was also commonly referred to as "the new bridge" for years before I-90 was expanded.

Both of the southernmost bridges are called I-90, both are sometimes referred to as the "Mercer Island bridge," but the original floating span also has a name, the Lacey V. Murrow Memorial Bridge and it's companion is the Homer M. Hadley Memorial Bridge, though it is also sometimes referred to as the "third bridge" since it was the third floating bridge to be built over Lake Washington.

All that said, if someone told you to take the Rosellini bridge to Bellevue, then swing south and cross the Hadley and return home via the Murrow, most people wouldn't know what they hell you were talking about.
RE: The Golden State Freeway
Report a violationPosted by: dbreneman on Aug 7, 2008 9:41 AM
I've got a better idea. Go back to California.
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